Running For President Aint a Picnic! (Updated III)

"I don't think the race is over until Sen. Clinton decides she is getting out" -- Barack Obama on MTP

Excuse me?

You know, I have heard so much about THE MATH, and am now a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over again.  So here are two points I like to make:

Point 1- Obama supporters, surrogates, as-yet-undeleclareds (hummmm ... ) Brazile and Clyburn, cite rules so much, let me point something out very clearly.   Have they noticed the simple fact the superdelegates can change their minds, and ONLY at the convention, their vote is final?  So, unless one candidate concedes, we have to wait till convention to make sure who is the winner, regardless of anyone's opinion.   In fact, I know that Obama and his supporters are fully AWARE of this fact. That's the REAL reason behind shouting for something like two months that Hillary should quit. (or Psychologically taking her out. We understand. It's all part of the game.)

Because, you know, the only way to stop the process and short-circuit it, is to force Clinton to withdraw. It's been a really tough horse race, one candidate is tired out, and is eager to call the race NOW.

And friends, let me remind you, neither in sports, nor in politics, is it ever customary to ask a person or a team to concede before the race is over and the buzzer is sounding.  So, please remember that.

(more overleaf ...)

But, you'd say, it's harmful for the party.  The race will go on and on.  We won't have time to campaign for the general election.

In fact, the excitement over the primary could be very good for the party.  (but then, do you trust the Democratic Party to be able to figure anything out right, and use this excitement? I didn't think so.)   However, I leave that argument to others.

Since some of the doomsday arguments comes from the likes of Dean and Pelosi, who are (presumably) the Democratic leaders, let me add something that has gone unnoticed till now, and that is my second point.

It was the custom that candidates battle it out, and then the convention officially crowns one candidate as the nominee. Usually, everyone would then sing Kumbaya, there would be confetti and balloons, and the nominee will get a few percentage boost in the polls (the convention bounce).

Now, democrats in their ultimate wisdom (/snark) decided that (I am NOT making this up):

1- Oh, it will be a good idea to have a nominee early, like in February.

2- However, rules will prevent any state (except IA, NH, SC, and NV) from holding a primary prior to February 5th.

3- Democrats (and I am NOT making this up) gave BONUS delegates to the states holding primaries in March, and later. For example, a state could get AS MUCH AS 30% of BONUS delegates by holding its primary in JUNE. (you are following so far?)

4- Democrats also insisted on a system of proportional allocation of delegates.

5- Democrats also decided on a LATE convention date, to get the convention bounce. Apparently a version of memory loss had hit every democrat and they COULDN'T remember past the last 3 primary elections, to the times (Clinton, Mondale, Carter, and others) when the convention decided the nominee. [Bill Clinton clinched the nomination in June] .

6- DESPITE Florida 2000, democrats still had plenty of caucuses to go around, even though it's messy as heck, and impossible to confirm a fair election has taken place. Well, never mind Iowa, and who wants to offend party officials who wanted to build the party in this fashion?

7- So if your head is NOT spinning, you have followed that the democrats WISHED a nominee to be chosen early, but instead SET UP everything to get it to go as long as possible.

8- Never mind Florida and Michigan. Items 4 and 6 ensured that in the case of a very competitive race, the winner of the pledged delegate race and the popular vote leader weren't the same, as we see now. Democrats had added the superdelegates to the pot, so they could be tie-breakers.  In case you thought, oh, wait, that's a neat way to solve this, you are suffering from intense optimism, and underestimating the ability of the Democratic Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.  

9- Faced with the complete MESS that they have created, the democratic elites (DNC, Pelosi, pundits, big heads....) are understandably and predictably MAD at .... THE VOTERS. Yes, how dare those pesky voters want to keep voting and at least have a LITTLE feeling that their votes matter?

10- Faced with pesky voters who can't follow the drumbeat and get the HINT who they are supposed to vote for, the elites are now MAD at the WOMAN (that is Hillary, and yes, I intentionally wrote that. Can you IMAGINE anyone telling Reagan in 76, Kennedy in 80, or any other WHITE MALE in a serious position of taking the nomination, to stop competing? Or as the pompous ass, Keith O put it, take Hillary to a room, and lay down the law?)

I feel like shouting, SHE IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, YOU MORONS, AND IT AINT A PICNIC.

Oh, I feel someone should remind Sen. Obama too: RUNNING FOR PRESIDENCY AIN'T A PICNIC!

UPDATE: I would like to add the link for the Democratic Party's delegate allocation, and the awarding of bonus delegates for choosing a later primary or caucus date. Here: The Green Papers.

UPDATE II: This is a clarification of the phrase 'you morons' above. I was referring to those named in item 10, specifically the elites such as Russert and KO. In no way, that sentence is directed at the readers here or at Obama supporters. Please don't take it as such. Thanks.

UPDATE III: Thanks to KnowVox in the comments, similar observations are made in an article by Steve and Cokie Roberts.

Note: this diary is really a re-write of comments  I wrote on The Left Coaster and The Confluence.  I thought that it is worth making them into a diary.  

Note II: the author of this diary is a Canadian, who unfortunately cannot cure him/herself of addiction to the American political process, despite the fact that the said addiction is very bad for the author's health.



Display:


Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 20)

Tip Jar!!


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 12)

Bravo, well said, and thanks for saying something new.  It's true, we all forgot, that the superdelegates can't vote until the convention.  So even if enough of them "declare" for Obama or Clinton to give one of them 2024 total delegates or more if Fla and Mich are resolved, those super delegates are free to change their mind at any time before the convention, for any reason.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 6)

And hence the deafening drumbeat for Hillary to withdraw.  How dare she be so negative and keep running?  

Another forgotten point: things like that are EXACTLY why voters perceive the Democratic Party as weak.  The Party can stand up for its rules and principles, and say, yes, it could go on for a long time, but heck we are NOT afraid of it.  If they turned a dicey situation into a plus, guess what? Voters will respect them, and will trust them with their votes.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Doesn't she know her place? (2.00 / 6)

it's time to let this promising upstart glide to the nomination and you're marring his aura! Be patient, woman, it's just not your time.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't she know her place? (2.00 / 3)

soft bullying, women see it, we've experienced it.  He wants her to give up, but she won't. She can lose if she doesn't get enough votes, but no one can bully her, not even Bambi.  


by anna shane on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:58:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't she know her place? (2.00 / 1)

It's odd.

I read comments frequently from male Clinton supporters accusing Obama of being "weak" and "effete".

I read comments frequently from female Clinton supporters accusing Obama of being a sexist bully.

Perhaps you should all get together and figure out which negative slam to go with.

Maybe Mark Penn could see which one polls best for you.


by emptythreatsfarm on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't she know her place? (2.00 / 1)

we don't call him weak and effete. That's the columnists, who also like to paint her as overly manly.  We call him less prepared than she, fine but not over the top great like she is.  We call him out only for his negative campaign smearing her character.  I think he's tall and handsome. But, not as great a candidate as you know who.  


by anna shane on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually I do find him too soft (none / 0)

and early on said he reminds me too much of John Kerry (effete.) Is that bad?


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Most bullies are weak. (none / 0)

Just sayin.


by georgiapeach on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (none / 0)

So let's clarify something here.  You are advocating that Democrats should follow the rules and schedule that they outlined at the outset of this nomination contest.  That way they will gain respect and not be seen as selling out their principles.  I agree 100%.  building on this consensus we can certainly both agree on 2 major points that flow from it:

1.  That both nominees have every right to continue campaigning through the remaining schedule and even into the convention itself

2.  that The delegations from Florida and Michigan should not be seated because their contests were moved forward in violation of the rules that were outlined at the outset of the contest.


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:27:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So are the pledged delegates. (none / 0)

Doesn't mean even one of them will.  As soon as enough supers have publicly stated their support to put Obama over 2,025, the contest is effectively over.  Not saying when that will happen: it could be on Wednesday, it could be after Oregon, after Puerto Rico or even at the convention.

As soon as that happens, Clinton's fundraising will dry up completely and the media will start ignoring her.  She will have no choice but to "suspend" her campaign, both financially and because she doesn't want to look foolish.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 2)

the problem is, if she drags this to the convention on the hope and prayer that a bunch of supers change their minds, what happens in the 10 weeks in between the last votes and the convention? does hillary run negative ads to convince supers that obama is unelectable (which will, at that point, be her ONLY argument)? will that prevent obama from spending money to fight mccain? will mccain get another two months of free press because the dems are fighting amongst themselves?

if it goes to the convention, we lose. it's that simple. it's not that we obama supporters want to see her quit to satisfy our inner misogynist. rather, we see it thusly: the only way she wins is to drag this to the convention. if she does that, mccain wins.

if she's down in delegates on june 3, she needs to get out, announce her full support for the nominee, and we can all move on and beat mccain.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 1)

I disagree with you. Unless Obama has reached the magic number, this should go until it's done.


by TinaH1963 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They don't care (1.50 / 2)

Neither Hillary nor many of her cultish supporters care about the Democratic party or Obama's chances in November.  If "their gal" can't have it, nobody can.


by JJE on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They don't care (2.00 / 1)

what an ugly thing to think.  That's what we do care about.  If our girl isn't our nom we'll live with it. Will you, if it goes the other way?


by anna shane on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I sure will (2.00 / 1)

your sentiment is admirable but the available evidence suggests it is not widely shared amongst Clinton supporters.


by JJE on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

TR'd for calling Hillary supporters cultists. (none / 0)

I don't like it when they do it and I don't like it when an Obama supporter does it.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (none / 0)

Isn't it true that none of the delegates (pledged or otherwise) can actually vote until the convention?
by zenful6219 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 5)

good god - did he really say that?


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 9)

Lizardbox gives the full quote below.

However, I think the intention is very clear.  To add to the drumbeat that Hillary should withdraw, and she is at fault for prolonging the process. I had heard it in so many variations from  so many people that I decide to write this diary.  Namely, the Democratic Party rules are SET UP to result in a LONG race, and as everyone surely tells us, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game!!


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 2)

"and as everyone surely tells us, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game!!"

I could not agree more.  That is precisely why we should work together to make sure that the rules that were established at the outset of this nominating contest are honored.  We must ensure that the rules are not changed to allow delegations from Florida and Michigan to be seated in proportion to the voting that has already occurred in those areas.  I am sure that we would both agree that doing so would be an incredibly egregious case of changing the rules in the middle of a game.


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (none / 0)

The rules provided for a grievance mechanism.  The RBC decided to go nuclear on FL and MI. Especially FL democrats didn't deserve to have no say in the process.  The rules left open the LEGAL mechanism of challenges for the states.  Florida and Michigan were asked TO SCHEDULE alternative primaries.  We all know what happened to those revote plans.

The challenges are NOT made of smoke and mirrors.  There is a very established, specific process for such challenges.  It is established that the challenge will go to  the RBC and then to the Credentials Committee, and ultimately to the convention floor.  Yes, it's another one of those pesky rules of the Democratic Party, and it may be inconvenient, but it's there.  Furthermore, the challenge deals with the heart of the nomination process, which is the will of the voters.  Not counting Michigan and Florida in some fashion (or as you suggest, deciding now to never seat them) violates BOTH the rules and the spirit of the primary process at its core. Further, it's sadly reminiscent of Bush v. Gore.  Recall that the Supreme Court stopped the couting of the ballots based on some twisted argument of the equal treatment? Any child could see that no matter the argument (which was flimsy at best), the spirit of the law was broken.  

On the other hand, there is NO RULES, or indeed argument to say that the candidate with the most number of pledged delegate should win.  That's a media and Obama campaign creation.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (none / 0)

Yet if you look closely at my post I do not suggest or imply that these delegations should never be seated. You conveniently made that up and attributed it to me.  Thanks.  I am against seating them based on the proportions of the votes that occurred in violation of the rules.  nice try, though.  The grievance procedures can go forward, but the seating cannot be what team Clinton is seeking without a grave injustice being commited and I think that in the heart of hearts of most supporters of Senator Clinton, they must know this.


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 1)

"Can you IMAGINE anyone telling Reagan in 76, Kennedy in 80, or any other WHITE MALE in a serious position of taking the nomination, to stop competing?"

Actually, yes. Huckabee, Edwards, Clark, Bradley, Nader, Quayle Perot, Duke, Hart, Kennedy, Carter, Reagan, Wallace...

For the record (and this is basic American History), Reagan and Kennedy were both emphatically urged to get out of the race, both by the political establishment and by the voters. And have we entirely forgotten the mess with Gary Hart?

And, for heaven's sake, why do we even learn the story of Aaron Burr if we are going to ignore it when it is convenient?


by not Brit on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 2)

and what do the repubs in 1976 and the dems in 1980 have in common?

um, they lost.

if hillary takes this to the convention, we lose. after june 3, when the primaries and caucuses are done, the party needs to reach a resolution. all summer campaigning has to be focused on the general election.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:58:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (none / 0)

So far he's won a bunch of what we call primaries. Where have you been, on Pluto????


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 3)

I think, especially at this point, they are both well aware that running for the Presidency is not a picnic.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:13:01 AM EST

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 8)

She's in this thing because she knows she can make a difference in our lives.  

She's going to win this thing and get it done.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:18:45 AM EST

She can still make a difference (2.00 / 2)

as a Senator from New York.  Congress is where bills like gas tax holidays get introduced, anyway.  I don't see why she still wants to head the executive branch.  Her most relevant executive experience is running a national campaign, where she went from clear front-runner to second place.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She hasn't yet (none / 0)

She hasn't done much for New York except used it as a stepping-stone.  She's been a mediocre Senator and would make a worse president.  The only thing she "fights" for his herself.


by JJE on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have hope for her. (none / 0)

Losing made Gore and Kerry much better public servants.

When you lose something that important, it makes you want to do what's right and damn the consequences because you've been through worse.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She hasn't yet (none / 0)

She has gotten out of New York what she wanted. She "Carpetbagged" her way into the state. Ran against no one. No offense to Rick Lazio, well he is no one. Basically New York was "The Perfect Storm" for Senator Clinton.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She hasn't yet (none / 0)

Really? At least, she was fighting the whole Republican Party who demonized her and spent $30 million to stop her.

BTW, who was Sen. Obama's opponent in his Senate race?  And wasn't his Illinois State Senate position very part time?

You may not think Sen. Clinton has run tough campaigns (btw, what do you think spouses do when their husbands campaign? Sit at home and look pretty?).  But then, she head and shoulders above her opponent in the EXPERIENCE department.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She hasn't yet (none / 0)

My opinion is that the only "Democrats" who refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming hatred by the Republicans of the Clintons are former Republicans.
by zenful6219 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She hasn't yet (none / 0)

I agree with you there, she certainly has trouble looking pretty. But you missed my point. The question asked : What has she done for New York State, which if you look at her record, is essentially nothing. She used New York like New York feared she would, as a stepping stone toward the Presidency. Which in 2001 she swore to the people of New York that she would not. Another lie. Is the house in Chappaqua up for sale yet?


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She hasn't yet (none / 0)

...speaking of using the Senate as a stepping stone after only 2 years and after promising Illinoisans that he would fulfill his term.....


by jentwisl on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama can still make a difference (none / 0)

as a Senator from Illinois. In fact, after another 8 years, he might just be ready for the Presidency. I don't see why Obama still wants to head the executive branch.
by zenful6219 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama can still make a difference (none / 0)

not patronizing at all. he'll be ready when you tell him he is...

you hillary folks and you're sense of entitlement astound me.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She's the one (none / 0)

with the crappy unpassable legislative initiative.

And she's got more seniority in the Senate.

And she's losing the nomination.


by corph on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My - you post a lot of great comments. (2.00 / 7)

Great diary.

Thanks for stringing your thoughts together.


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:18:57 AM EST

Re: My - you post a lot of great comments. (2.00 / 5)

Thanks.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 8)

Damn right! Senator Obama needs to be reminded that this is no game, and Hillary is a fighter. He does NOT have this thing sewn up and Hillary is not going to give up, no matter what a bunch of politicos say. Hey, Barack, here's the deal: if the American people wanted Hillary out, they'd have her out. No one cares what Kennedy, Kerry, Carter, Pelosi or Dean has to say--Hillary's staying in because the VOTERS want her to.

YES SHE WILL!


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:19:43 AM EST

I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 3)


MR. RUSSERT:  So if you win Indiana and North Carolina, you don't think the race is over?

SEN. OBAMA:  Well, I don't think the race is over until Senator Clinton decides that she's getting out or until all the primaries and caucuses have taken place.  And we know that's all--you know, that's only a month away.

What are the two ways the race is over:

  1. Clinton or Obama drop out
  2. Clinton and Obama let it play out

And that's what Obama said.

I would also ask you to remove your "YOU MORONS" phrase as it's unnecessary and insulting.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:21:47 AM EST

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 5)

I wasn't saying that (the phrase: you morons) to the readers of this blog.  It was aimed mainly at pundits like Russert and other Big Heads who think, oh they know what's best for the peasants.  These arguments are not directed at Hillary, it's directed at her voters.  Frankly, it's to emotionally blackmail them to not vote for her.

This is a very competitive race.  In a usual race, just the aura of being front runner gives a candidate a HUGE boost, especially a candidate who has leaped ahead from behind.  Americans love a winner, and it's surprising that they don't just fall behind Obama and let him clinch it.
 


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (none / 0)

That's not very clear just to let you know.  It looks like your calling anybody that non-hillary supporters morons


by reggie23 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 2)

pardon my shitty grammar


by reggie23 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:53:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 6)

That's not my intention at all.  Especially since in the previous paragraph, I am talking about Russert and KO, and DNC heads.  

Hopefully, people will read my clarification here, because, like to leave it like it is.  It sums up how I feel towards pundits who think they know what's best for everybody.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:57:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for the update


by reggie23 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (2.00 / 2)

morons that you were not referring to any of us.  I am guessing that Obama followers are feeling a little uneasy these days and are pretty sensitive to anything that they can possibly construe as denigration.  

Hopefully, after Obama gets out of they race, they will start feeling better.


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:23:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, he will. (none / 0)

In November 2012 or thereabouts.  Then Democrats can start vying to become his successor.  I hope Hillary doesn't burn too many bridges now if she wants to run then.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (2.00 / 1)

under what circumstances should the guy who is winning among pledged and total delegates, states won, and popular vote (counting states in which, you know, there were legit elections) get out in favor of the woman who is second in popular votes, second in states won, second in pledged and total delegates ?

please, someone explain this (being honest and un-snarky here). i simply don't get the clinton logic...


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (2.00 / 1)

if she's ahead in the popular vote without counting Florida and Michigan and if she's polling better against McCain, and if the supers seem to be finding that a compelling reason to go for he, he might then consider giving up, but I think he should wait until the supers have their votes too?  It was demeaning of him to say that she can stay until she gets out, it's insulting.  Not the way to win over her supporters true support should he get the nom?  


by anna shane on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (none / 0)

ok, first, he said "when she gets out, or at the convention"; that's not a slam at her in any way, that's a statement of fact. the game is over when one team quits, or when time runs out.

second, IF she is ahead in the popular vote without counting michigan and florida, and with counting the caucus states, then i agree she has a case to present. but the likelihood of that happening is infinitesimal. to have any chance of that, she has to win both states tomorrow, since she's about 600k down.

as for polling, depends on which poll you trust. supers aren't going to use, say, gallup over rasmussen, or care if one poll has mccain up 2 or something. the only game changer is if he's down 15 and she's up 10, or thereabouts.

this needs to end, for better or worse, in early june. she'll probably be about 100-120 delegates behind. she either needs to show she has enough supers to overtake that lead, or quit.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (2.00 / 1)

I guess the points of this diary was MISSED.

No where in the RULES, anything is said about the pledged delegates, or about the number of states.  Really, should Alaska count the same as New York? Should Alaska and Utah be worth twice as much as California? Counting the number of states is an ABSURD argument.  Please do not make absurd arguments.  

The rules don't even say anything about the popular vote.  All these are arbitrary metrics.  The RULES say two things.  First, despite the fact the YOU don't like it, the rules provide a clear mechanism for Michigan and Florida to challenge the ruling of the RBC. This challenge will go to RBC now, if the outcome is disputed, it goes to the Credential Committee, and can ultimatly be decided at the convention floor.  Sorry that you don't like it.  Supreme Court also didn't like messy recounts in Florida in 2000.  Democracy is sometimes VERY messy.

Second point, after the Florida and Michigan challenges are resolved, then and only then, the delegates vote for candidates.

By the way, perhaps Obama (or Clinton, or DNC) doesn't like a long process. That's just tough luck.  There has been certain times that a strong nominee has clinched the nomination before the convention: Clinton 92, Gore 00, Kerry 04 were among those.

If Obama really wants to go against McCain now, and be the nominee, sure, he has to resoundingly and convincely win (ie. get 2208 delegates).  In the absence of that, he has no right to nomination and no right to ask anyone to concede b/c he happens to be ahead now.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (none / 0)

2024. michigan and florida won't get resolved until the nom is settled. and if they are, they'll be split in a way that doesn't affect the nominating process.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was clear to all of us who do not feel like (none / 0)

Whatever.  You just feel free to make up your own rules.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:53:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 2)

Like an eats shoots and leaves moment!! No one is really minding anyone's grammar, friend!
by Jeter on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know what you mean (2.00 / 1)

I can see how if one feels like a moron it would be easy to believe that someone is calling you a moron.


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know what you mean (none / 0)

Huh, is this suppose to be a joke or an insult?


by reggie23 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:28:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The insult so moronic (none / 0)

you had to say it twice.


by JJE on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:22:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you feel like a moron then it is easy (2.00 / 1)

to believe that anybody who utters the word "moron" is aiming it at you.  


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm confused (2.00 / 5)

I understand that the first part of the quote can be considered as taken out of context if the second part isn't included.

What I fail to see is how Obama said what you paraphrased him as saying.  According to the transcript quote you have placed here, Obama very clearly did not say that the race would be over when he decides he's getting out.  He was very careful to say no such thing.  He said it the way he did to suggest that it would be inconceivable for him to drop out, but reasonable and perhaps even expected for her to drop out.  So your paraphrase #1 is incorrect.

So while the part about "when she decides to drop out" is not the whole quote, it is quite clear that he is suggesting that she should drop out, without saying it outright.  Which means that it's fairly reasonable to take umbrage at the first part of the quote.

I agree that YOU MORONS is a highly inappropriate way to address readers, regardless of what one thinks.


by Montague on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:38:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (2.00 / 1)

Honestly I watched MTP (as I do every Sunday), and it didn't come across as though he's asking her to drop out. On many occasions Obama does acknowledge the tenacity of Senator Clinton and how you shouldn't count her out, so I think to suggest that this is a call for her to drop out is a stretch, and even if it were, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

I honestly wasn't trying to misrepresent. Simply giving an account of what I understood he was saying as I watched the show.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm confused (none / 0)

Not at all, I didn't think you were trying to misrepresent.  I was just confused.  Since I didn't actually see the clip and therefore can't assess the tone, I'll go with your assessment.  Thanks for the clarification.


by Montague on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:54:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 5)

I like your dedication but you just lied in your comment within one second. Read what Obama said and read your point #1. You will see the difference.


by Sandeep on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sure you wouldn't quote out of context! (2.00 / 3)

We throw around the word "lie" too much, I believe.  A person may assess a statement differently than someone else might, but that doesn't mean the person intended to lie.


by Montague on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 4)

Hopefully, Barack Obama will concede on June 3rd, after Puerto Rico votes and the Rules & Bylaws Committee seats Michigan and Florida, anointing Hillary the rightful leader in every metric: pledged delegates, popular vote, electability.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:27:36 AM EST

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 1)

FYI: She's behind in pledged delegates right now, counting MI and FL. And also assuming that he gets 0 votes from Michigan.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 4)

If you read my brief comment carefully, you'll see I referenced the delegate total for June 3rd.  The imbalance of extremely pro-Hillary states v. tossups possibly leaning Obama is anticipated to net Hillary around 30 or so delegates in May/June, maybe even more.  

The margins for Obama are really bad in Kentucky, West Virginia, and Puerto Rico.  A slim victory in Oregon won't help.  Nor will South Dakota/Montana do much since they each have only slightly more delegates than Guam.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:16:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 1)

right, so let's play this out and assume, for the sake of argument, that she nets 40 delegates in between now and june 3. that would put her 97 behind (not counting any super movement in between now and then).

if you add florida and michigan as is, she nets about 120 more, which would, yes, give her an edge of about 20, give or take. of course, you'd have to have your head stuck up your backside to think that there's any chance this scenario happens. if you give obama the uncommitted, he wins. if you think they're seriously going to give barack zero delegates from michigan, you are deluding yourself.

that would mean a convention floor-fight, and that would mean we lose november. the dnc won't allow that. at the end of the day, he'll agree to seat half of florida's delegation, they'll split up michigan, and he'll still be ahead in delegates. the supers at that point shut it down.


by jbill on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (2.00 / 7)

I think at the end, Hillary will lead even more clearly and convincingly in the popular vote.  She is leading now, and she is going to add to her margin.  But Obama will lead in the pledged delegate metric.  By the rules of the Democratic Party, neither of these metrics determine the nominee.  By the rules, the party should first resolve the challenge of Michigan and Florida, and somehow get them included.  That would be the first vote at the convention.  Then, a vote will take place, and whichever reaches the magic number (half of total (pledged+super)delegates) first, clinches the nomination.  

I am sorry for those who don't like it, but those are the rules! (Remember how we are all fond of rules?)  It's the job of Democratic leaders to foresee different outcomes and choose everything (including the time of the convention) to maximize the chances of the democratic nominee.  Obviously, they didn't plan well.  However, that's no reason to shout at Hillary or the voters.  

Remember, the WHOLE reason to have a primary IS to get the voters to select a nominee.  So the most sacred thing is to let the voters vote, and to have those votes counted.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary wanted this over in February (2.00 / 2)

Does that make her any worse than Obama waiting until June to ask her to drop out?  


by highgrade on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:54:12 AM EST

Take a deep breath (2.00 / 1)


   and chill out. Obama, as a candidate, is allowed to criticize Hillary. It happens...Hillary is a big girl, she can take it.

  Take a deep breath and relax!!


by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:54:46 AM EST

I gave you mojo. (2.00 / 3)

b/c I agree.  It's certainly within bounds.  Even all these calls, and drawing attention to the fact that he is ahead are within bounds.  

However, the rest of us are also allowed to give our take, and bring a few other facts into it.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I gave you mojo. (2.00 / 2)


   Indeed you are. And you are an intelligent blogger. Obama believes he's ahead, he's certainly going to try and prod Hillary out....Hillary would do the exact same thing if she were in that position.

  Talk your points and debate. Either candidate will be a fantastic President!!


by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:11:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (Updated) (1.66 / 3)


"I don't think the race is over until Sen. Clinton decides she is getting out" -- Barack Obama on MTP

He is truly a POMPOUS Ass.


by nikkid on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:56:35 AM EST

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (Updated) (2.00 / 4)

Agreed.  I really look forward to the day when the media and popular narrative sheds more light on what's really going on with Florida and Michigan and the holy rules which are going to seating them.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:21:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you got troll rated for calling the Pompous ass (none / 0)

a pompous ass.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IMHO (2.00 / 3)

This race isn't over until Obama decides to withdraw.

Thanks for the excellent diary, ghost.


by Nobama on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:13:24 AM EST

NYTimes: Hillary the Al Gore of 2000 (2.00 / 4)

and Obama the George W. Bush. Because of Florida.

NYTimes: Popular Mechanics

If Hillary Clinton can catch Barack Obama in the popular vote, she could paint the race as a repeat of the election of 2000, with herself as Al Gore and Mr. Obama as George W. Bush.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:23:52 AM EST

Re: NYTimes: Hillary the Al Gore of 2000 (1.50 / 4)


Obama = Bush 3.0
by Nobama on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this is a great diary and one that needs (2.00 / 3)

repeating widely and often.  Senator Clinton should not be called upon to get out of the race by anyone including the morons who are in the MSM or the morons who wrongly believe that you called them morons.  Thank you for seeing Hillary as the splendid candidate that she is.


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:32:57 AM EST

Re: Running For President (1.50 / 4)

An arrogant, condescending, jerk that thinks he should be handed the presidency because he's a symbol for the big donors and the insiders waiting to pull his strings.  NOT. And doesn't want to be bothered actually doing the work.  Gee, this all sounds so familiar.

GOOOOOOOO Hillary!

President Hillary doesn't hold grudges, so Obama can count on her help if he decides to run for re-election for the Senate in 4 years.


by LindaSFNM on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:35:04 AM EST

By (2.00 / 1)

 he's a symbol for the big donors

do you mean Obama is an affirmative-action candidate?  And "pull his strings"?  How about a Manchurian candidate?  Of course, you're only rephrasing bullcrap Coulteresque lines of attack because Republicans will do it anyway in the fall, I'm sure.

It's Hillary who'se been funded disproportionately by large donations, by the way.  She's run a terrible campaign, has feigned outrage at every step, insulted large segments of voters and blown every advantage created by her name recognition and leftover goodwill from her husband's presidency.

I never understood the breadth of her support to begin with, but I'm glad to see it does not constitute a majority of Democratic primary and caucus voters.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: By (2.00 / 1)

actually it does "constitute a majority of Democratic" primary voters and caucus voters...it's just that Democratic rules allow (in some states) independents and crossovers...


by jentwisl on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I meant (none / 0)

the primaries/caucuses were Democratic, not that the voters were necessarily registered Democrats.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: By (none / 0)

NO she isn't.

This year, for example, 50% of her donations came from small donors vs. 55% of Sen. Obama's.  (numbers from memory, sorry don't have the link).  Even last year, the numbers weren't that far off.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

Clinton doesn't hold grudges?  Are you serious?

This contradicts everything we have heard about her and her camp.  Ask Bill Richardson if the Clinton's hold grudges.    


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really think (2.00 / 1)

Do you really think that Hillary would stay in the race until the convention if the party moves towards Obama after June 3rd?  

She's going to stay in after he goes over the required delegate count and starts picking his running mate and cabinet?  

She's going to stay in after the debate over FL and MI is settled?

I just can't see that happening.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:35:19 AM EST

Yeah, she's not that stupid. (none / 0)

I hope there are enough Obama supers-in-waiting on Wednesday to put him over the top after the pledged have been allocated.

Clinton has failed her test of character so far  with that CinC threshold bullcrap and dissing of activists in caucus states.  She can help redeem it with a little grace after Obama effectively secures the nomination.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, and MI and FL (none / 0)

are already settled, at least in terms of the impact of pledged delegates on the total count (there won't be any).  The only remaining question is how supers interpret the vote totals in terms of the popular vote winner.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Canadians (none / 0)

Gee whiz! How soon can we let Canadians vote in our elections!!


by LA on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:23:03 PM EST

This one already does (none / 0)

(dual citizen). I know plenty others who would really like to.  Thing is, the US naturalization process isn't as attractive to Canadians as it used to be.


by corph on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (Updated (none / 0)

If Hillary can get away with this stupid, Republican-like gas tax holiday pander, I guess we can also say:

Running For President Ain't a Nitpick!


by Rumproast on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:15:33 PM EST

Re: Running For President Aint a Picnic! (Updated (none / 0)

Today on Morning Joe, she had a brilliant answer.

She specified that this is just a short term relief for the people whose work and life depends on commute. The cost of fuel could also be devastating to some businesses (such as truckers).  

She said, well they don't make this much noise, when it is the big banks and big corporations who are bailed out with 30 billion dollars of public money and more. But talk about spending $2 billion (paid for by taxing oil companies) and everyone starts protesting.  

She was absolutely right.  

Was is Jerome (or Big Tent Democrat at TalkLeft)who drew attention to the fact that no democrat was talking policy when the $600 rebate check was passed.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

RICHARDSON WASN'T NO JUDAS (none / 0)

FOR RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, NOW WAS HE?

Sorry, it is VERY ROTTENLY CUSTOMARY to declare races over before they're BEGUN.

Now that we have a real race for once, are you really so eager to go back to that pestulent, cesspit that was what used to be presidental politics?


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:28:45 PM EST

I have no idea what you mean by this: (none / 0)

Now that we have a real race for once, are you really so eager to go back to that pestulent, cesspit that was what used to be presidental politics?

In what world, carrying due process is what you have called it?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cokie Roberts (2.00 / 1)

Ghost: Cokie Roberts has an excellent article about how we Dem's are shooting ourselves in the foot over our nomination process, which backs up many points in your diary:

http://www.jamestownsun.com/articles/ind ex.cfm?id=65535&section=Opinion


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:45:28 PM EST

Re: Cokie Roberts (none / 0)

Thanks.  

You know, another point that I just thought about.  

Has anyone observed that a long democratic primary may NOT be what Republicans want? Think about it.  Hillary and Obama put different part of the EC map in play.  Hillary is strong in FL, PA, OH, NJ.  McCain will choose a VP to challenge her in the regions of her strengths and also fight for certain demographics.  Say, he may put a woman or an AA on the ticket.

On the other hand, if Obama is the nominee, McCain may choose to seriously challenge places like NJ, NY, and win PA and OH outright.  So he may settle on a different strategy in the case of an Obama nomination.  So, he has all this time, but what is he going to do with it? and the long process may force him to choose a VP and a campaign narrative that later prove to be wrong.

Democrats have a great hand, including 2 aces, and are still somehow whining.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

Yeah, I think a lot of people tend to forget that the superdelegates are free to change their allegiance any time before the Convention. The nomination could only be "locked up" per se, if someone got enough pledged delegates to do it.

This nomination process is a slow-motion train wreck however. If Hillary succeeds in getting the Ruled Committee to reverse the decision no FL/MI this month, we're in for a hell of ride all the way through August as far as I can tell. They will end up almost deadlocked on both pledged and super delegates, with no easy resolution in sight: alienate voters from two huge swing states by unseating FL/MI (not too mention Hillary's demographics) or "steal" the nomination from the first legitimate contender from the Party's most loyal voting bloc (AA's).

Hello President McCain!


by dmc2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:13:28 PM EST

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

What are the numbers for women voting Dem as compared to AAs? Are women considered a loyal voting block? And if so, what are the numbers? Anyone know?


by ellend818 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

I think they trend Democratic, but nothing like 90/10, more like 55/45.


by dmc2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

women do not vote as a block (none / 0)

the way African Americans have been.  However they are a much bigger constituency than AAs.  The biggest part of the democratic party base is women.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You tell the lie that Obama is tired (none / 0)

Obviously this is wishful thinking on your part.

You should be ashamed of telling baldfaced lies like this one.


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:38:01 PM EST

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

Hillary's done everything she could to try to beat Obama. How could The "Golden Goose" lay such a big egg? She was the frontrunner for Christsakes. Now she's on the bottom looking up. She's been desperate the last half of this race. Even her supporters are so desperate they see mirages when it comes to HRC. They'll grasp on to anything that looks like good news. She sounded so presidential, she has the experience, I actually saw this quote, "she reminds me of Harry Truman" well she may remind you of Harry Truman, but she did the same job as Bess Truman in the White House. Now it looks like she has to pull out all stops, maybe even pull Bill's sax out of mothballs, that is if she still blows....


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:56:18 PM EST

Re: Running For President (none / 0)

Great post until 9&10.

It is absurd to think that the DNC "elite" are anything other than ecstatic about the Democratic voter registration and dominance in the media.  The problem is not that she is still in the race, but what she is saying to promote herself.   Recently with the gas tax she is demanding that people show where they stand,  that is an attack on democrats, what would she do if a majority of Republicans say they stand with her on the gas tax and all nonDLC Democrats oppose?   She has gone from Republican promoting attacks on Obama, to Republican promoting attacks on all Democrats.  Sounds alot like what she did on Health Care.   Alot of her recently promoted points have been attacks that could effect the entire (D)emocrat brand.   So for that reason I say if her name wasn't  Clinton, and she wasn't female, she would have been forced out a long time ago.  Your putting forward the notion that Democrats are more afraid to offend the majority of Democratic voters (women) then they are to offend white men, who do not have that sort of identity.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:08:15 PM EST

Ghosty, I didn't know you were a Canadian (none / 0)

come vote here anyway dammit!

I love your diary and I learned something too.  I had not idea the DNC was offering extra delegates for having a later primary.

I am so everlastingly sick of Obama and his arrogance.  His boredom and sense of entitlement to the nomination is getting sickening too.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on